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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:46 pm 
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I know that may sound like a crazy question, but here's my situation. I purchased a new computer a few months ago with Win 7 Pro installed. It came with a 512GB Samsung 950 Pro SSD and with a UEFI BIOS, both new to me. After getting most of my programs/utilities installed, I used both Acronis and Macrium Reflect to create system images on both another internal drive and an external drive.

I then generated bootable DVD disks and USB flash drives.......this was not a straight-forward task because of the fact that my SSD is one of these NVMe devices. To create my recovery media, in Acronis I used the Acronis plug in and ADK components; in Reflect I used the Windows PE version 10. With each of these recovery media, I was then able to boot into the respective restore/recovery menus of both Acronis and Macrium Reflect.

But that's where I stopped. I never did an actual restore/recovery because I was 'chicken', and I still am. Since my new computer is running so well I didn't want to chance doing a restore from my backups.

Now to my question. Is there anyway I can test my backups without actually doing a restore over my perfectly-running Win 7 system? For example, can I test it by doing a restore to yet another internal drive, and not back on my SSD C drive? If so, exactly how should I go about this?

Thanks in advance..........

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:06 pm 
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Yes you could restore to another drive. When I restored my Acronis image of Win 7 after installing and imaging Win 10 I was given all of my internal drives as choices for the destination. If I had selected another drive would it have worked? I can't say as I've never tested that.

Acronis also has an option to validate an image which, if the image passes, should give you a bit more confidence.

I can't speak on this as to Macrium as I am not using. Pete will probably be able to give some insight.

Now here is how I would do it if I had a spare drive that was equal in size or larger than the normal boot drive. I would attach the second drive and use Acronis (or other cloning software) to make an exact copy of the boot drive to the other. Cloning is different than doing an image as the cloned drive is bootable, it is not an image but an exact copy of the original drive that you can from which you can actually boot.

Now you would restart the system and use the F# key (possibly F9 but I think yours is F11) to choose the desired boot device and boot to the cloned drive. If all is well do the restore to the normal boot drive from your image. If it fails you can boot to the cloned drive and clone back to the normal boot drive. DANG! All the usage of the word 'clone' sounds like a Star Wars movie... :mrgreen:

OK, the above should pretty much cover the backup for your first test image restore. ;)

I put in all the above as you said that you were Chicken. :shock: Here is what I would do if it were my system, just recently did this...

First, if I don't trust the software, why am I running it? On my system I trust both Acronis and Windows imaging. That said I still take precautions. I manually made an image to my internal image drive with both Acronis and Windows. I also made images to an external with both Acronis and Windows. Then I used the Acronis validation function to test the Acronis image. So now I have four images with one of them validated. Installed Win 10 and made those images and then just restored the Acronis image, no issue. The point is that I had four images on which to rely. One of them just about has to work...

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:11 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
Yes you could restore to another drive. When I restored my Acronis image of Win 7 after installing and imaging Win 10 I was given all of my internal drives as choices for the destination. If I had selected another drive would it have worked? I can't say as I've never tested that.
Jay, thanks for the response. Before I start with my questions to ensure that I understand all you are saying, I need to clarify one point as regards disk vs drive. My SSD is Disk 0.....it contains three partitions, as follows:
- Primary partition is my C drive containing the Win 7 Pro OS
- There is a small EFI System Partition (99MB)
- There is also a small Recovery Partition (450MB); Velocity tech says they didn't put this here....must have been Samsung

When I create a system image using Acronis, it captures all three partitions. Will cloning using Acronis do the same thing?
Acronis also has an option to validate an image which, if the image passes, should give you a bit more confidence.
Yes it would, but I can't remember whether I did this or not.....I usually do verify, validate, etc. when given the opportunity. Now, is this something I can do after the fact, i.e., can I go in now and validate my Acronis image?
I can't speak on this as to Macrium as I am not using. Pete will probably be able to give some insight.

Now here is how I would do it if I had a spare drive that was equal in size or larger than the normal boot drive. I would attach the second drive and use Acronis (or other cloning software) to make an exact copy of the boot drive to the other. Cloning is different than doing an image as the cloned drive is bootable, it is not an image but an exact copy of the original drive that you can from which you can actually boot.
So I assume that Acronis gives me the option of imaging or cloning? I never looked into this but will now investigate. If I clone my SSD Drive C to an internal SATA Drive D, it would be nice to see if I can boot from Drive D.

Now you would restart the system and use the F# key (possibly F9 but I think yours is F11) to choose the desired boot device and boot to the cloned drive.
OK, I'm with you so far. On my new computer, F8 is the key that brings up the boot menu where I can select to boot to the cloned drive. I assume this cloned drive will still have the designation 'Drive D', i.e., nothing in this cloning process causes the drive letters to change, does it?

If all is well do the restore to the normal boot drive from your image.
So you are saying that if the cloning process worked and I could boot from Drive D, then I should feel comfortable in using my Acronis image to restore Drive C....and if that restore worked, then I can have faith in being able to do an image restore when needed.

If it fails you can boot to the cloned drive and clone back to the normal boot drive.
OK, I understand what you are saying here. But please clarify....am I cloning just my OS Drive C or all three partitions on Disk 0 as discussed above?

DANG! All the usage of the word 'clone' sounds like a Star Wars movie... :mrgreen:

OK, the above should pretty much cover the backup for your first test image restore. ;)

I put in all the above as you said that you were Chicken. :shock: Here is what I would do if it were my system, just recently did this...

First, if I don't trust the software, why am I running it? On my system I trust both Acronis and Windows imaging.
It's not that I don't trust this software as much as ensuring that I am doing everything correctly with this UEFI BIOS and the NVMe SSD device.....both new to me.

That said I still take precautions. I manually made an image to my internal image drive with both Acronis and Windows. I also made images to an external with both Acronis and Windows. Then I used the Acronis validation function to test the Acronis image. So now I have four images with one of them validated. Installed Win 10 and made those images and then just restored the Acronis image, no issue. The point is that I had four images on which to rely. One of them just about has to work...
Well, that's been my MO up to this point. I also have four images plus all my data files backed up using SyncToy. So I figured that one of them has to work if/when needed. But then I decided I better do some testing......which led me to my original question.


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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:28 pm 
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This will be a LONG response so is going to have to wait until tomorrow. LOL! About your bed time anyway, isn't it? :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:43 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
This will be a LONG response so is going to have to wait until tomorrow. LOL! About your bed time anyway, isn't it? :mrgreen:

Well OK, but, don't make it too long, or by the time I get to the end I will have forgotten the question. :zzz9:

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:14 am 
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You do get the option to validate the image with Macrium, I use when I do my images.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:36 am 
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The 450 Recovery partition is from the Windows install. Microsoft put it there.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:54 am 
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dvair wrote:
The 450 Recovery partition is from the Windows install. Microsoft put it there.

What can it be used for? And how would it be used?

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:58 am 
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OK, how does validating work exactly (either by Acronis or Macrium)? Does it require additional space on the drive to perform? Does it include at least a partial restore someplace that is then deleted after validation is completed? Or is it merely a look-see to ensure that the backed-up files/folders are actually there (I can actually do that myself)?

Just curious..........

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:07 pm 
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You don't use the recovery partition directly, bb. Microsoft uses it when you do a reset of your system. You go through the Settings/Update and Security/Recovery interface.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:48 pm 
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Hi BB and all

First to directly answer the subject question. You can't. The only way to be 100% sure an image will restore is to restore it. Everything else is close wanna be's.

First let qualify myself a bit. When I first started I to was terrified. But finally when I got one of my new machines, I bit the bullet knowing VM could help reinstall windows. I sat there with white knuckles thru whole time, and it worked. Know I give a much thought to doing a restore as you would opening a word doc.

Then I got involved with my mentor at Storage Craft, and private beta tested for them. In the course of 5 years, I probably did close to 1500 restores on 3 different machines. When I got interested in Macrium it was V5 and for the 30 day trial, I did 3 images and 3 restores per day for the 30 days. When the let v6 out of the box several of us at Wilders got hold of it, and abused it beyond belief. We did stuff that violates every rule about imaging, and then restored. v6 held up in amazing fashion.

Anyway. One thing I've learned is validating or verifying an image is a waste of time. My mentor at STC gave me a good example. You order a box of fruit. When it comes you examine the box. It's banged and crushed you can be sure the fruit may be damaged. (The equivalent of a failed validate). But okay now the box is in fine shape.(The equivalent of a passed validate). But you stll can have damaged fruit. So it is with images.

The way I test the images, if I should want to before restoring, is mount the image with a drive letter. Then go to a place where I have some video files. I play one. If it plays the image is good. I have never had an image that failed that test. But what I have seen is an image where the mount test failed. Out of curiosity I verified it and it passed. Out of further curiosity I restored it. The restore failed.

So okay, you want to try your first restore, and are terrified. Join the club. Here is what to do.

1. Make sure you have all your software installers and licenses tucked away
2. Image your system with Macrium.
3. Image your system with Acronis, but do it from the recovery environment, not windows.
4. Take a deep breath, clench your fists, and do a restore.
5. Once you realize you live thru it, practice, practice.

You want to know your restore procedures, down pat, cause I can tell you from experience when you really need it, you are all ready going to be under stress.

Pete

As PS I recently read an interesting article about businesses facing ransomware attacks. Three interesting points.

1. Totally inadequate backups
2. No experience with restore, and people didn't know how to restore
3. Due to lack of testing backups, the backups proved bad.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:27 pm 
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@ Patty - Thanks for the explanation. I first thought the people at Velocity had installed that partition, but they said no. The tech thought maybe the SSD vendor Samsung had done it. But now I know......my friends at Microsoft.

@ Pete - I truly appreciate your post, and I know that took a lot of time to write. I will print it out and put it in my "how to" notebook. Actually, I have done a couple of Windows image restores in years past, and even one using an old Acronis program. But in those cases, I had to because my system crashed. And even though I was a little nervous, the restores worked with no problem.

The reason I'm so nervous now is because of my particular SSD and UEFI BIOS. Initially, Acronis said they couldn't do a normal backup and restore with this new NVMe device because the current program didn't have all the drivers. However, they said a new release would soon be forthcoming that should handle my SSD. Then they said it the current release might/should work if I used a WinPE-based recovery DVD (which I created, along with a bootable USB flash drive).

Same thing with Macrium.....they said I had to create a Recovery Media using Windows PE version 10, which I did.

And of course, Windows imaging didn't really work because I could not even create a Rescue Disk.

So with all these "ifs, ands or buts" from the backup/restore vendors, of course I'm a little nervous. OK, maybe I'm a lot nervous, lol. But I will bite the bullet someday soon........

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:18 pm 
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LOL! Well it seems that others have covered my back very well and given good advice. :) Now my post will be pretty short.

I believe I remember the upgrade to Acronis where no one was really sure about the missing driver on the recovery media was fixed. Regardless the PE version of the recovery media covered this by the Microsoft ADK inclusion.

Now, even better... Check for another update to Acronis unless you have updated within the last week or so. My last Acronis update was just yesterday, 6/3/16. I can't prove as I don't have your type of SSD but this issue is supposedly fixed in the straight Linux based recovery interface. Even if not it is covered in the PE version. Just boot to your recovery media (update Acronis and make new media first) and see if your SSD is listed as a destination. If it is listed, it is seen.

Of course you could just boot to your WinPE recovery media and see if your SSD is listed as a destination.

In either case, if the drive is listed as a potential destination for the image, there should be no issue. Without the proper drivers for the drive being present the drive will absolutely not show as a possible destination.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:18 pm 
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@ Jay - The first update after I created my WinPE-base recovery media was suppose to have recognized my SSD. But the guys on the Acronis forum recommended that I just stay with my bootable WinPE-based recovery DVD, as they knew that would work on the Samsung 950 SSD.

I haven't yet done the latest update, but now I will.

Neither have I ever tried booting to my current PE media to see if my SSD is listed.....I probably need to do that. However, I do know that Acronis recognizes it by name/model as a source when I am creating a system image.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:46 pm 
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MacDuffie wrote:
You don't use the recovery partition directly, bb. Microsoft uses it when you do a reset of your system. You go through the Settings/Update and Security/Recovery interface.

Patty, I'm not quite sure what you mean by a system reset.

But I think I screwed up this little recovery partition. On Disk 1, it appeared to the right of the partition where I actually did the Win 10 install. This little partition was 449MB and was described as 'Healthy (Recovery Partition)'. It had no drive designation.

I wanted to make the Win 10 partition itself a little larger, and in the process of moving/resizing is where I screwed up. This little partition is now 455MB, is described as 'Healthy (Primary Partition)', and has been given the drive designation F.

I am still able to dual boot into Win 10, but I assume a reset is no longer possible. Should I worry? Is there a way to recover this recovery partition?

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:04 pm 
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You are going to totally hate me BB... ;) If you want to restore the recovery partition to what it was do a restore of your most recent image. In a small way I am teasing you but in a large way I am serious.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:08 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
You are going to totally hate me BB... ;) If you want to restore the recovery partition to what it was do a restore of your most recent image. In a small way I am teasing you but in a large way I am serious.

Naw, I'm easy to get along with. And I might just do that.....after all, I installed Win 10 in boot mode to play around with. Might as well test a restore with it. Does this need to be an image created before I screwed up, or can I first create a current image?

But why do I really need this recovery partition? What does reset mean? :zzz9:

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:22 am 
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Well first off, it is entirely possible that your system image would not include the recovery partition. (And what I mean by Reset is a full recovery to the way it was when Windows was installed. That is Microsoft's terminology and what you will see in the Recovery settings.) So I wouldn't jump into doing a recovery of your image unless you really wanted to test your image (which you might). Just make sure you back up any new data since the image was made.

The other thing you could try is a system refresh. Since the installation is new, that wouldn't change much and should be fairly straightforward. It's what we used to call an in-place installation. It just installs Windows over itself. That would tell you if your recovery partition is still functional - and it could result in it losing that drive designation (which would be a good thing in this case, I think).

Actually, it seems Microsoft lost the "refresh" terminology that was present in Windows 8. There should be a similar option on the Advanced Startup menu - but I'm not sure what it's called. There's a chance that it is the Reset, with choosing the option to preserve your files (as opposed to doing a Reset without preserving your files, which would wipe the drive and do a clean install). I haven't done this procedure to be able to say. Do you know Jay? Have you ever done a reset?

In any case, if the reset fails (says it can't be done), it won't make any changes to your system (or will revert any it did make), and you'll know your Recovery partition is hosed.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:49 pm 
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Nope, I've never done a reset.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:27 pm 
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JoanA wrote:
You do get the option to validate the image with Macrium, I use when I do my images.

Joan, the only thing I see on my Macrium Reflect program is the capability to 'verify'. But I can't see how to do this when I am creating an image. Unless I'm looking at it wrong, it appears as if you have to start the restore process to verify your image.

Whereas one of the options with Acronis is to validate a backup when it is created.

Am I missing something. Can you verify your Macrium backup as it is being created?

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:57 pm 
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It can't be verified until after it is written, no image can. But basically you aren't really proving anything. Mounting and checking a file in the mounted image is better then the verify, but still only 100% thing is a restore.


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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:20 pm 
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Peter2150 wrote:
It can't be verified until after it is written, no image can. But basically you aren't really proving anything. Mounting and checking a file in the mounted image is better then the verify, but still only 100% thing is a restore.

Pete, good point about mounting and checking a file(s). I always do this with both my Macrium and Acronis backups, and everything looks fine. I just thought that during a verify or validate process, the program actually did a practice restore someplace and then deleted it.

So now I'm curious.......I wonder what Macrium (and Acronis) actually does during a verify process? I'll have to study up on that.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:41 pm 
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jaylach wrote:
You are going to totally hate me BB... ;) If you want to restore the recovery partition to what it was do a restore of your most recent image. In a small way I am teasing you but in a large way I am serious.

Well, I finally bit the bullet and did an Acronis restore of the Win 10 partition on my old computer. It went very well with no problems, and it took about 24 minutes. I could not test a Macrium restore because I did not purchase/install the software on that computer.

However, Patty was correct......my system image did not include the recovery partition.

But I feel better now about the restore process. However, this was not a restore of Win 7 Pro on my new computer where I have the Samsung Pro SSD and the UEFI BIOS. That will probably come soon, because I am giving serious thought to upgrading that computer before the free Win 10 upgrade expires.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:50 pm 
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Well the good experience should give you a bit more confidence. ;)

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:53 pm 
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bbarry wrote:
Peter2150 wrote:
It can't be verified until after it is written, no image can. But basically you aren't really proving anything. Mounting and checking a file in the mounted image is better then the verify, but still only 100% thing is a restore.

Pete, good point about mounting and checking a file(s). I always do this with both my Macrium and Acronis backups, and everything looks fine. I just thought that during a verify or validate process, the program actually did a practice restore someplace and then deleted it.

So now I'm curious.......I wonder what Macrium (and Acronis) actually does during a verify process? I'll have to study up on that.



IFW has an optional verify that compares the image with the disk on a bit by bit basis. Some verify's just compute a checksum. Way it was explained to me is a verify is like checking the crate of a fruit shipment.


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