I know many of you use Macrium for backup purposes. So my question is....does Macrium (free or paid version) work on the newer external drives having 4096 byte sector size?

Here's my situation. I have two 2TB Seagate external drives. My older one has a 512 byte sector size and works well for storing system images using Windows backup. My newer drive has a 4096 byte sector size and does not work with Windows backup (the infamous 4K problem). So I need to find and use another backup program.

Will Macrium do the job for me? If not, any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance.......

P.S. I know this is giving Pete and Acadia the opportunity to make a Macrium advertisement free of charge

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Well I don't know what the in famous 4k problem even is, but I just looked. All three of my internal drives, and my main Transcend 2tb external are all 4096 sector size.

Macrium,Shadowprotect,Image for Windows,Aomei, and Drive Snapshot all work fine. Windows Imaging also works, but I rate it poor by comparison.

Did a little research on the "4k" problem. Then I checked the drives per MS instructions.

All of my drives are Advanced Format (also known as 512E) Meaning the "Bytes Per Sector" value is 512 and the "Bytes per Physical Sector" value is 4096

Doesn't change the rest of what I said.

Pete, as usual thanks for the response. If your external drives are 512 bytes per sector (or 512E), then you should never encounter the 4K problem. Just like my older Seagate external drive, which is 512.......I never have any problems using Windows backup with it.

I still have a couple of questions when you have time:
(1) Do you have any external drive that has 4096 bytes per sector, such that you can check if Macrium (or the other programs) work on it?
(2) How did you get all your drives to be Advanced Format? Is that the way you purchased them, or did you physically reconfigure them (and if so, how)?

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Seagate has some disc tools on their downloads page, maybe one of them would work for you to get the drive setup correctly:

http://www.seagate.com/support/by-topic/downloads/

I would try the DiscWizard or Drive Manager to see if they work for you.

1. Unfortunately all my externals are the same as the internals

2. Don't know. Didn't do anything to the computers internal drives, and the externals I just did a quick NTFS format.

Couple of questions for you:

1. I thought you were going to buy Macrium. Did you not do this.

2. I also thought you were going to go with 3 internal drives. Did You?

Fair enough:
1. Before my new computer arrived, I downloaded Macrium Free on my old computer. I did perform a backup, but I stumbled through a few of the steps I guess because I didn't read the manual. About that time my new computer arrived and I didn't work with Macrium any more. If I decide to make Macrium my backup program of choice, then I will probably purchase the v6 that you recommend.

2. Yes. I have a 512GB Samsung SSD as my C: drive, and two 2TB SATA drives. One of the SATA drives I use for a full backup of C: (image & files) using Windows Backup/Restore. The other SATA drive has two partitions: one is where I installed my VirtualBox stuff and the other is where SyncToy stores my data files.

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Thanks. I had actually looked there but couldn't find a solution, and I don't think there really is one. When Seagate manufactured the drives, they did so with 4096 bytes sector size, and this can't be changed (thus the 4K problem). Unfortunately, the Windows backup program just won't work on these 4K drives. The drives are great for storing data, just not Windows backup images/files.

My internet research suggests that even backup programs like Macrium have problems with these 4K drives. But surely that is not the case, because this would render the larger drives useless as backup devices.

So I am hoping to find someone who has 4K drives like mine and who has successfully created system images using Macrium or some other program.

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Okay. I tapped an extremely knowledge source. He doesn't think Macrium will work with the Native 4k drives which is what you have.

And the kicker is Win 7 doesn't support native 4K only win 8 and up. So a couple of suggestions that might help.

First why even use the external drive for any backups. Internals will be significantly faster.

Second. If you want to use the seagate, plug it into the new PC, and try a quick format, or even a full format. That may fix the 4k problem

Third Why not just use the Macrium Free as opposed to windows imaging. It's at least a 1000% better.

Once again I MUST state that there is zero relation between a 4096 allocation size and the 4K boundary issue.

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Jay, I'm not talking about the 4096 allocation size, which is the lower boundary when you do a format (upper boundary is 64Kilobytes).

I'm talking about the sector size, which for my new drive is 4096 bytes (this is the 4K problem) and for my old drive is 512 bytes. This can be seen via Start>System Information>Components>Storage>Disk.

Attached are the screens for my new drive showing 4096 bytes/sector and my old drive showing 512 bytes/sector.

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Also Jay while it is being confirmed, the guys I talk with suspect even Macrium won't work with a native 4096 allocated drive.

Thanks for the additional info, Pete. Before I address your questions, I must say that Win 7 does support drives with 4096 sector size in everything but backups. I use Win 7 extensively on my new computer to do everything. I only encountered a problem when I tried to do backups. From what I read, later versions of Windows (i.e., 8 and 10) will handle Windows backups on these larger drives, but Win 7 won't and Microsoft ain't going to fix it.

Now to address your questions:
First - I do use my internal SATA drives for backups. One I use for a full backup of C: (image & files) using Windows Backup/Restore. The other SATA drive has two partitions: one is where I installed my VirtualBox stuff and the other is where SyncToy saves my data files.

Second - I did both a quick and a full format of my Seagate 2TB drive. Didn't solve the problem, because as I understand it formatting doesn't change the sector size.....Seagate did that when they manufactured the drive.

Third - I've been comfortable with Windows backup, and the few times I had to do a restore from system image, it did the job perfectly. Sadly, Microsoft didn't/won't change Win 7 backup to work with the larger drives having 4096 sector size. So I probably will be adding Macrium to my arsenal, and I appreciate the fact that you and others speak so highly of it. And the fact that you have offered to help me with it should I encounter issues/problems.

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

If you want to see the allocation size of your disks do this:

Open a cmd window as administrator

1. type fsutil fsinfo ntfsinfo c: (or any drive letter)

2 You will see lots of info:

Bytes per sector
Bytes per physical sector
Bytes per cluster

My number are:
512
4096
4096

I'll bet yours are also, except maybe the Seagate.

You might check this out

http://www.partitionwizard.com/

You will need the professional version $39 which allows changing cluster size

Those are the numbers I get for my old 2TB Seagate drive and for my internal 2 TB SATA drives. But for my new Seagate drive that is giving me the problems, I get:
4096
4096
4096

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Thanks. I'll check it out, but it is my understanding that the sector size can't be changed from what the manufacturer set it to be. Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.

Pete, I did check the program out....it will change cluster size, but not sector size (which is what I need changed). Specifically, here's what they say in answer to a question someone asked:
"The problem is that the '4k sectors' of your hard disk means 4096 byte per sector size not the cluster size. MiniTool Partition Wizard could only change the cluster size, not the sector size. If there any problem please feel free to contact us."

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Hi BB

Okay, my contact posed the question on the Macrium forum, and basically the answer is no. Digging a bit deeper, you have a combination of problems. 1) Seagate. Seems that the way they are doing things is causing your problem, other vendors have found a way around it. 2) USB enclosure. From what I've read, you could take the drive out of the enclosure and connect to a SATA port.

I have some new Transcend drives that are 2tb. I've imaged directly to them with Shadow Protect. I'll try with Macrium, and post back. I am not going to bother with Windows imaging, as it would be time prohibitive.

Pete

Thanks for your efforts, Pete. I figured Seagate was at fault, which really disappoints me. I currently own 4 Seagate drives, but probably never again. If Macrium works on your Transcend, I may try one of them. I just don't want to bother taking my Seagate out of the enclosure.

In the interim, I'm going to modify my backup steps just a little, i.e., switch things around. I'll do image and file backups on my two SATA internal drives, and use the external Seagates for saving data files......one for all my trail camera photos/videos and one for Sync Toy to use.

And once the dust settles, I am going to once again try Macrium....either on one of my internal SATA drives or on a Transcend drive.

What ever I do, I better get a move on. We have some BAD weather moving in tonight......heavy rain, wind and good possibility of hail. Even a chance of tornados (4 on the scale of 10).

Thanks again..........

I forgot to mention that I do use the old Seagate 2TB drive for system images, as it has a sector size of 512 and works great. So all my system images are not on internal drives.

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BB
http://barrypatch.net

Test Results:

C drive is currently 158Gb. Average time to do full image to internal drive is about 19 minutes.

I plugged in one of my USB3 Transcend drives. These are the fully ruggedized drives.

1. Time to image to the drive with Macrium and SP was about 23 minutes. Not to bad.
2. Decided to try Windows imaging. I knew this wouldn't be an image that would restore. 48 minutes. That is embarrassing.

3 Decided to see how long it would take to copy a full image to the TRanscend. 15minutes.

BB I would get macrium free on the new machine. I honestly don't trust Windows Imager inspite of it's popularity here.

A bit of an aside, but why don't I trust Windows Imaging.

1. It has no ability to check the image. That is unacceptable. Every other imaging program I have allows:

a) Verifying the image, which isn't the best way or
b) Mounting the image, and playing a file video file from the image. The best way

2. The worst reason, it fails under some circumstances. Imaging programs, are a sector by sector copy. If all the sectors are copied correctly, and restored correctly everything should work correctly. They also put the sectors back where they found them. Easy test of this. Image a badly fragmented disk, then defrag it. Restore the image and you get back the fragmented disk.

Now the failure. I use a program Raxco's Instant Recovery. It puts a preboot option in, but it is not in the mbr. The preboot option allows you to tell it which one of several snapshots to boot into. The preboot option comes up before windows boot menu. There is also an option to turn off this preboot menu.

I leave the preboot on and functioning and if I image with SP,Macrium,IFW,Acronis,Aomei, I can restore with these programs, and everything boots normally including the IR Preboot. BUT if I image with Windows Imaging and don't turn of the preboot, the imaging taking goes fine, as does the restore, just the minor inconvenience of an unbootable system.

So whatever is going on a true and faithful image wasn't taken. There is a workaround with IR, but what else could cause the same issue. I don't know and wouldn't chance it.

You can actually mount the Windows Image file through Disk Management. Use the Action menu item and select Attach VHD. Then you browse to your image backup.

Didn't know that. Why didn't they hide it a bit deeper. And people think this a good imaging software for new users. Phafft

LOL! And how many new users even know what a system image happens to be? A while back I actually did a little study on this. I asked several customers at work if they knew what a system image happened to be. The most common response was the 'My Pictures' library. It was a very small sample, only asked about 20 people. One out of the ~20 actually knew that it was some sort of backup but had no idea as to what it actually meant.

Considering the above small test, and assuming that Macrium came pre-installed on a system, would a NEW (as in novice) user have any better luck in understanding and/or finding the fine points?

Yes, as David states, a Windows backup image can be mounted as a virtual drive. I brought up this point a few years ago as a quick and easy method to bring back a data file that was accidentally deleted without going through the entire restore process. But this is power user stuff, not for the novice. Consider your example of mounting a Macrium image and testing a video file... Please explain to me exactly how this is different than mounting a Windows Image file and doing the same.

Personally I don't consider the mounting of an image and testing a single file valid anyway. Even if the selected file performed perfectly it would not mean that the image was solid. I would consider the following a MUCH more valid test of the image... I have never done this so it is possible that it may not work but I don't see a reason why.
1) Of course make the image.
2) Install either Virtual PC, VirtualBox or the VM of your choice.
3) Mount the system image as the boot drive in the VM. (With Win 7 SP1 or a later OS the boot will, most likely, survive driver conflicts)

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Pete, if your external Transcend 2tb drive is 4096 sector size, I wonder why you aren't encountering the 4K problem like I am with my Seagate 2tb drive? You say you can create system images using various software packages, including Windows imaging. Yet with my Seagate, I can't use Windows imaging on any of my Win 7 computers.

I know that in a later posting, you said that your sector size was 512 when you used fsutil. So I am a little confused. Maybe 512 is your sector size and 4096 is your allocation (i.e., cluster) size?

I am thinking seriously about purchasing a Transcend external, but I don't want to encounter the same problems. Any advice?

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BB
http://barrypatch.net