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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:35 am |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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My older computer runs Win 7 Ultimate. Everything is contained on my C drive......OS, programs, & data. The total space used on the C drive is shown as 218 GB.
Weekly I do an automated Windows backup to a 976 GB external drive. This backup includes the standard data files and system image. I let Windows choose the data files and I only retain the latest system image. Therefore, I thought the size of my external drive was sufficient. However, I recently received an error message that my drive didn't have enough space to do the weekly backup.
Attached is the screen showing how my disk space is currently being used by Windows Backup. I just don't understand these numbers. Specifically, - How can the system image be 520 GB? - What are these 'Other Files' at 259 GB?
I would appreciate any help in understanding why a 976 GB external drive is not sufficient to backup a 218 GB hard drive. Thanks in advance.....
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BUSpace.JPG [ 82.81 KiB | Viewed 26385 times ]
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sboots
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:31 am |
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Site Admin |
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:48 pm Posts: 2959 Location: New Jersey
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Click on View backups and you should see more details. I suspect that the latest System Image and one prior is what you are seeing at 520 GB.
_________________ stephen boots Microsoft MVP 2004 - 2020 "Life's always an adventure with computers!"
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:45 am |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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Steve, when I click on View Backups, all I see listed is the 112.91 GB Date File Backup for the period 3/17/16 - 7/23/16. I see nothing about the 259.63 GB Other Files, which is one of the things perplexing me.
Also, if I only retain the latest system image, how can this show 520.20 GB for a hard drive using only 218 GB of drive space?
I mean, how does a person ever estimate the external drive size needed to do a Windows backup with these strange numbers?
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MacDuffie
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:11 pm |
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Fearless Leader |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 2819
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Go into the backup drive in Windows Explorer, Bb. You may have to answer various prompts with continue after Windows says you don't have permission. You can get all the way in until you see all the folders on that drive. What are the names of all of the folders on your drive? (There should be one for data backups and one for system image. Other folders would likely be your "other files." Something you put on the drive yourself at some time? The folder containing your system image I believe as a nice system icon and a name that includes your computer name and "PC". I forget what Windows 7 calls its data backup folder.
_________________ Patty MacDuffie Computer Haven Administrator
Live Long and Prosper Mr. Spock
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:20 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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MacDuffie wrote: Go into the backup drive in Windows Explorer, Bb. You may have to answer various prompts with continue after Windows says you don't have permission. You can get all the way in until you see all the folders on that drive. What are the names of all of the folders on your drive? (There should be one for data backups and one for system image. Other folders would likely be your "other files." Something you put on the drive yourself at some time? The folder containing your system image I believe as a nice system icon and a name that includes your computer name and "PC". I forget what Windows 7 calls its data backup folder. Patty, as you suggested, I did some exploring of my backup drive with Windows Explorer.The data backup folder is called Bill-PC and shows a drive icon. The folder containing my system image is called WindowsImageBackup and it merely shows a folder icon; under that folder is another folder labeled Bill-PC. Actually, there are two Image folders: Bill-PC and Bill2-PC, the latter being for my Win 10 OS that I am running in dual boot mode. I forgot all about also backing up my Win 10 OS on that drive.....sometimes dual booting truly gets me all confused, lol. So since both configurations (Win 7 & Win 10) are backed up on that drive, I can now account for the system image size of 520 GB, although part of this 520 is the fact that Windows retained the last two full backups of Bill-PC, but the 'why' of that is a problem for another day. So I guess my remaining question is about those so-called 'Other Files'. I don't understand what these might be? The 112 GB usage for my data files looks about right, but the Other Files at 259 GB is perplexing.
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MacDuffie
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:29 pm |
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Fearless Leader |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 2819
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I would think that the Windows 10 image files are the "other" files, as Windows 7 would not recognize those, and I would not expect both operating systems to use the same folder.
_________________ Patty MacDuffie Computer Haven Administrator
Live Long and Prosper Mr. Spock
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:53 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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I think the Win 10 image files are included in the system image size of 520 GB. Now, if the Other Files are the Win 10 data files, then that's just too large......I don't have near the data in my Win 10 configuration as I do in my Win 7 configuration.
I know there is a way to mount a system image and read/extract all the files contained in the image. But I wonder if there is a way to read these Other Files to see what they are?
My concern is that these Other Files command a lot of real estate. To further illustrate this fact, here are the comparable backup usage stats on my new Win 10 computer (not in dual boot mode): - Data File Backup: 146 GB - System Image: 201 GB - Other Files: 497 GB (this is very large compared to the two numbers above)
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:25 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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Well, I found a way to extract/read the Data Files from a Win 7 Backup (slow process). But then I don't know which, if any, might be the Other Files......and these are the ones I'm trying to figure out. Oh well......nap time.
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Peter2150
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:55 pm |
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:52 pm Posts: 970
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BB
Do I have to till you what I recommend.
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jaylach
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:58 pm |
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Resident Geekazoid Administrator |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:09 am Posts: 9484 Location: The state of confusion; I just use Wyoming for mail.
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Actually Windows 7 and 10 do in fact use the same folder name for a system image. Remember that in Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 the image routines are those directly pulled from Windows 7. I would not trust this at all as it would not be impossible for one image to overwrite something that is needed by the other image. I do not know this as fact but, since the routines are the same, it seems plausible. I would partition the drive and use one partition for each OS image. Or you might consider doing just one image of both OS installs at the same time. This is how I do my laptop running 7 and 10. I just image everything all at once. I figure that the most likely reason for me to do a restore is a drive failure and I'd have to restore both OS partitions anyway. Where I see a potential issue is not the actual image but the support files/folders. Here is a list of everything within an image folder without opening the sub-folders. My concern is not with the actual backup folder but the other items. Attachment:
image-files1.jpg [ 46.05 KiB | Viewed 26371 times ]
Don't know if it will tell you anything but you might try running Disk Cleanup on the drive including System files. Don't actually execute the cleanup but just go as far as the list. It MAY give you a category for the 'Other files'. If you open the 'Other files' and the structure is not like the above screen shot it is not the Windows 10 image. I would love to see it in a category such as Update Files or such which would mean that somehow your Windows 10 builds and both OS update files are going to that drive. I doubt that this is the case but it can't be ruled out until tested either.
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:51 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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Peter2150 wrote: BB
Do I have to till you what I recommend. Well, I'm going to take a wild guess and say Acronis True Image 2016? Actually, I did purchase and use Macrium Reflect for my new computer, but it's just too expensive to purchase additional copies for my other computers (three others if you count my dual boot configuration). If I really like a software program, I go ahead and purchase the full version instead of just using the free version, such as Macrium, Acronis, MBAM, etc. I'm even trying to pay for Windows 10, but Microsoft won't cash my check.
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:50 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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@ Jay - Disk Cleanup didn't tell me anything. The only folder shown was Recycle Bin, and there were no files to view since I had not deleted any files from this external drive. Same thing if I clicked on System Files, only now I had two more options: (1) delete programs I don't use (and it took me to Control Panel>Programs & Features), and (2) remove system restore points and shadow copies. I didn't do either.
Since my Win 7 and Win 10 reside on different physical disks, what I did on my external backup drive was set up two folders under WindowsImageBackup - a folder for Win 7 and a folder for Win 10. The screen for both looks like your screen except there is no Logs entry. (Note: on my new Win 10 computer, my screen looks exactly like yours, with a Logs entry).
I have searched and searched the internet trying to ascertain the content and purpose of these 'Other Files', but without success. But there has to be an explanation, because as I mentioned above they sure take up a lot of real estate.....259 GB on my old dual boot computer, and 497 GB on my new Win 10 computer.
I'm just curious. If you open the 'Backup and Restore' screen on either of your computers and then click on 'Manage Space', what does your space usage summary look like? Do you show any 'Other Files'; if so, how large?
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jaylach
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:19 pm |
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Resident Geekazoid Administrator |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:09 am Posts: 9484 Location: The state of confusion; I just use Wyoming for mail.
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Hmmm, I just did a 'Manage Space' check and I DO show 'Other Files' in the amount of ~230 GB. To be honest I have no idea. Enabling the viewing of hidden and Protected files I do show ~3 GB being used by 'System Volume Information' but don't have the immediate time to search through the entire drive.
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:52 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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It does take a long time. On both of my computers, there must be a zillion compressed zip files that you can open individually to see content. But there is no way that I am going to wade through all of that.
In addition to not knowing the purpose & content of these 'Other Files', I am concerned because of the space they require on my backup drive. On my new Win 10 computer, they take up more storage space than my Data Files Backup and my System Image combined!
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bbarry
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:17 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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OK, mystery solved. I received a valid explanation from the Acronis forum. Specifically, they said: Other files should just be a reference to any other files that live on the backup disk outside of Windows images. These could be personal data files, Acronis backup files, etc.And sure enough, on this same backup drive, I also save my Acronis and Macrium backups, which total the 497 GB shown under Other Files. BTW, I also save my Acronis and Macrium backups on two external drives, so all my eggs are not on the same drive, lol. Bed time.........goodnight all
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MacDuffie
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:57 pm |
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Fearless Leader |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 2819
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For one thing, is it possible that both OSes are doing data file backups? That would double the amount of space being used by a data backup on the drive.
You might try booting into Windows 10 and look at the details of the backup from the Windows 10 perspective. See what those numbers tell you. (If anything.)
_________________ Patty MacDuffie Computer Haven Administrator
Live Long and Prosper Mr. Spock
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bbarry
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:30 am |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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Well, good morning Pete!
I can't disagree with you. Windows Backup has always made it difficult to identify and observe individual backed-up files. All those compressed zip file folders do let you see what files are in that folder, but you can't go looking for a specific file.....you must hunt and hunt. So I am about to give up on this archaic backup program. I probably need to learn how to use the File History backup capability of Win 10.
As you know, both Macrium and Acronis make it easy to identify and even restore a single file, as does SyncToy (which remains my favorite for simply backing up my data files).
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MacDuffie
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:41 am |
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Fearless Leader |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 2819
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Peter, I'm going to delete your post. Please reread the forum rules. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6&p=7#p7Your post makes it seem like everyone in this forum is stupid except you. That's against our rules. Windows 7 backup was a perfectly good program. It did its job, quietly in the background without any user attention, which is exactly what most consumers need, or they get no backup at all. Windows 10 backup program may do it better. Consider, however, how old the Windows 7 backup program is. Bb, with the Windows 7 Backup program, you can also easily restore a single file. You just have to go through the program's interface rather than Windows Explorer. With the Windows 10 File History, you can also do it through Windows Explorer.
_________________ Patty MacDuffie Computer Haven Administrator
Live Long and Prosper Mr. Spock
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bbarry
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:21 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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MacDuffie wrote: For one thing, is it possible that both OSes are doing data file backups? That would double the amount of space being used by a data backup on the drive. Possibly, but I just don't know.....I did my backups of both OS drives while I was booted into Win 7. You might try booting into Windows 10 and look at the details of the backup from the Windows 10 perspective. See what those numbers tell you. (If anything.) Numbers didn't tell me anything new. They were the same numbers as when I booted into Win 7. The only difference was that in Win 10 the backup drive was labeled drive N, whereas in Win 7 it is labeled drive F (another reason dual booting is confusing to me).
I think the real thing that is going on is what the members on the Acronis forum told me in a previous posting.....Other Files are those files outside the Windows backup itself that are also stored on the same drive. In my case, these are the Acronis and Macrium backups that I store on the same drive as my Windows backup files and system image.
So I'm satisfied that I now understand what is going on with my backup data. I did not know this previously, but evidently in its space usage summary, Windows reports drive usage from all sources (e.g., Windows, Acronis, etc.). Makes sense, since Windows needs to know how much total space is available for the next backup.
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bbarry
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:41 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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MacDuffie wrote: Bb, with the Windows 7 Backup program, you can also easily restore a single file. You just have to go through the program's interface rather than Windows Explorer. With the Windows 10 File History, you can also do it through Windows Explorer. Patty, I'm not sure what you mean by program's interface rather than Windows Explorer. All I know how to do is open the Data Files folder (the BB-PC folder with the drive icon), then open the backup set and backup files. That then produces a long list of zip files (615 on my new Win 10 computer). When I open any zip file, I will see some of my backed up data files. But there is no logic that I can see as to the content of a specific zip file, so looking for a particular data file would take me forever.
You probably know a better way, but that's all I know how to do.
However, I do know that restoring a single data file using SyncToy is a breeze, and any file can easily be restored using either my Acronis or my Macrium backups. But those Windows zip files are intimidating.
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bbarry
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:41 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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jaylach wrote: Hmmm, I just did a 'Manage Space' check and I DO show 'Other Files' in the amount of ~230 GB. To be honest I have no idea. Enabling the viewing of hidden and Protected files I do show ~3 GB being used by 'System Volume Information' but don't have the immediate time to search through the entire drive. Jay, perhaps you store your Acronis backups on the same drive? That might account for some or all of your 230 GB. I did not know this previously, but evidently in its space usage summary, Windows reports drive usage from all sources (e.g., Windows, Acronis, Macrium, etc.). Makes sense, since Windows needs to know how much total space is available on the drive for the next backup.
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MacDuffie
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:50 pm |
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Fearless Leader |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 2819
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If you go into the backup utility in Win 7, Bb, you will see a link somewhere that says Restore Files from backup. If you click on that, you'll be shown a choice of backups (I think - it's been a long time, and I don't have Win 7 here to check). You're given a choice of restoring an entire data backup or to search files or folders. If you choose folders, you can then navigate the folder tree, just as you would in Windows Explorer.
Basically, all those zip files you see in Windows Explorer are catalogued by the Windows 7 Backup program. It is that catalog that enables Windows (and you) to locate the file you want. When you go directly into Windows Explorer, you bypass that catalog and just see a mass of zip files. This is no different than what many proprietary backup programs out there do. It is not my favorite way of backing up though. The File History in Windows 10 is much more straightforward and a greatly improved design.
_________________ Patty MacDuffie Computer Haven Administrator
Live Long and Prosper Mr. Spock
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bbarry
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:27 pm |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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Thanks, Patty. I will try the Restore Files link and see what I come up with. I still use SyncToy to backup all my data files, as it is so easy to find and restore any specific file.
I saw you mention the Win 10 File History backup capability once before. I haven't tried it yet, but it certainly piques my interest. However, I'm a little confused.....is it for data files only, or can it create a full backup of my entire C drive? I guess what I'm asking, is it a full replacement for Windows Backup, or is it more like SyncToy? Probably not a full backup, since it can perform a backup as often as every 10 minutes. If I use File History, Jay will certainly rib me about making too many backups, lol.
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MacDuffie
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:53 pm |
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Fearless Leader |
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 2819
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Win 10's File History is for Data files backup only. It is always on, and backs up as you make changes or new files are added. Supposedly does this every hour. I haven't found that to be true. Likely every few hours, really.
It does not make a System Image. Windows 10 still contains Windows 7 Backup, you can make your system images using it. The only difference is that it does not run on a schedule, so you have to manually run it. (Or create a scheduled task.)
If you go to the File History control panel in Windows 10, the link to Create a System Image is in the same place, lower left - but when you click it, it takes you to the Windows 7 Backup utility.
_________________ Patty MacDuffie Computer Haven Administrator
Live Long and Prosper Mr. Spock
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bbarry
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:57 am |
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welcoming committee |
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am Posts: 2432 Location: North Central Arkansas
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Thanks Patty - I turned File History on for backup every 6 hours. So I will see what happens. It first informed me that I was already saving my data files via Win 7 Backup & Restore (which I am, along with creating a system image)
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